I got an email last week from a friend of mine who photographs weddings exclusively. He had a request. He was trying to help a young photographer break into the business and was asking his circle of close colleagues to meet with the newcomer. So far, so good. Opening your contacts book for someone else is a generous thing to do. It’s really encouraging to see a respected professional do that.
But in this instance, the generosity was being wasted. Worse, it was harming the young photographer in question.
He wanted to meet other photographers to pitch himself to them. His aim was to convince established wedding photographers to pass couples who couldn’t afford them on to him.
Oh.
Sweet.
Divine.
This is wrong on so many levels.
Referral business from other photographers is a huge resource that many professionals leave untapped. Credit to the young photographer for recognizing that hooking up with his colleagues is a good thing. However, referral business takes time to cultivate properly.
Before anyone is going to refer business to you, they need to know, like and trust you. This is Business Networking International (BNI) 101. Nobody is going to refer you business having met you once. Not unless you are massively impressive person. Let’s be honest. Most of us aren’t. Even me.
Getting to know another photographer, their work practices, their ethics, their style, their ambitions, their target market takes time.
Deciding whether or not you like them is often a snap decision made instantly, but it is no less important. If you don’t actually like someone you are unlikely to refer them.
Lastly, if you don’t trust them to do a good job you won’t refer them in a month of Sundays. You stand to much too lose. If a couple were to hire a photographer on your recommendation and that photographer made a huge mess of it, how would that reflect on you? Would it come back to haunt you? You bet it would.
It is going to take more than a one-off 15-minute pitch by the youngster for other professionals to start referring business to him. He needs to meet them regularly, get emailing, engage with them on Twitter, join an association, and participate in joint activities. That way he will build up a strong relationships, form friendships, and get over the know and like hurdles.
That leaves trust. He will have to show his colleagues that he is up to the task. Show them work regularly on a blog for instance, enter awards, gain distinctions, that sort of thing. When they see a consistent level of expertise, they will be in a better position to pass work on to him.
Which leads us nicely to the next issue. His unique selling point. He is setting himself apart from the established pros based on price. His marketing model is one in which an established pro will recommend a couple whose budget is tight to to him. His USP is “I’m cheaper than other photographers”.
Do I really need to get into that one with you? (Post a comment if I do).
The last point I’ll touch upon here is reciprocity. Relationships are all about balance. If someone does something nice for you, you are inclined to want to return the favour. If you receive a business referral from another photographer, you will want to make sure you pass them something when you are in a position to do so.
But how does this work for our young photographer? What is he offering in return? He is merely looking at this from a one-way street perspective: cheap business flowing from established pros to him. Where’s the quid pro quo?
So what should he do instead?
Meeting established pros is the right thing to do. But he needs to engage with them as a peer, not from a position of inferiority. The day he decided to become a professional photographer was the day he stood at our shoulders, not at our knees.
Rather than pinning his marketing on the flawed mast of being cheap, he should market his style and his personality. These are unique to him. That is what people will buy. If he markets his distinct voice he will be heard.
So rather than saying to established pros: “Pass me cheap work”, he should be saying: “Pass me couples who don’t fit with you and let’s see if I’m a better fit.”
Here’s a concrete example. My style is documentary. When I meet with a couple for the first time, the first thing we look at is what style of photography they are looking for. If it is formal classical wedding photography I send them to other trusted colleagues who do this sort of work. If they want the more modern relaxed posing style, I give them the names of a cluster of good friends who do that sort of work. There is no point me photographing their wedding. I do what I do, nothing else. I only photograph the weddings of people who want documentary photographs – and more specifically, MY documentary photographs.
And if I’m booked on the day, I now have a couple of colleagues around the country who are also shooting documentary work that I can recommend.
And guess what? It comes back to me.
That is one of the main things that Peter and I have been trying to get across when we meet other photographers. We are not cutthroat competitors. We are colleagues and we can help generate business for each other, provided we understand clearly each other’s unique voices.
That is what this young photographer needs to buy into.
He needs to step away from his current approach to other photographers. If he does, he will be embraced by a group of colleagues who will stand at his side during a long and fruitful career.
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I agree that referring couples to a photographer whose work is not known but who is less expensive is not something that any professional should be expected to do.
However, I have sympathy for the young photographer. He is trying to break into the business. I’m sure that over time he will develop his own style, his unique selling point, be it documentary, classical or whatever. But how can he market his wedding style if he hasn’t shot enough weddings – or indeed any wedding – to develop it?
He has to start somewhere. He is not, because of his lack of a track record, going to be able to command €2,000+ fees (or whatever is the going rate nowadays) for a wedding starting out so he is trying to get exposure to clients for whom distinctive styles are secondary to price (and there must be a lot of those out there in these lean times).
Two people will have to take a leap of faith and trust him with their wedding and they will invariably be motivated by price. Otherwise, why would anyone opt for a photographer who has never shot a wedding?
Surely, his main selling point for the early stages of his career will have to be the fact that he is cheaper than established pros? Not his sole selling point obviously – he will have to show that he is at the very least technically competent and is comfortable interacting with people.
Unless of course he has such natural talent that he can wow people from day one. How many of those are out there? Not a lot, I’d wager. Of any 100 wedding pros how many are artists and how many are just very competent craftsmen/women?
I’ve seen a lot of wedding albums. Most are formulaic and unimaginative – to my photographic eye. Yet, the clients concerned are invariably very happy. They have a photographic record to look back on. And in any case, after the first six months or so, the album is consigned to the top of the wardrobe and is probably not looked at again until years later and only then to cringe in embarrassment at how everyone looked and to remark on how many of the guests have split up or died in the meantime. Of course there are clients who are visually sophisticated and who want something special but there are also a lot of people (the majority?) for whom that is not a concern.
I’ve often wondered how established professional wedding photographers started out themselves. What was their first wedding shoot like? Do they look back and cringe at some of the results? What did they charge and how did it compare to established professional rates? How did they convince that first couple to hire him/her for their special day? (I think that would make a very interesting Circle of Confusion discussion).
I knew a few professionals who started out part-time, did the odd wedding on the cheap, gradually built up a reputation and after a few years turned pro.
And nearly all of those pros had some wedding disaster story to tell – films that hadn’t wound on, processing that went wrong, etc. My sister-in-law has no photos of her wedding because of some such cock-up.(That was in the pre-digital era. It’s so much technically easier now). Yet the pros concerned survived and prospered.
If I was one half of a couple due to get married, if we were strapped for cash, if we wanted a small ceremony and wanted nothing more than a competent record of the event because we could not afford professional rates I think I would very much like to know of this young photographer. It would, hopefully, be a win-win for all of us. We’d have our basic wedding album and who knows? – it might just be a little special thanks to the talent and enthusiasm of the photographer who welcomed the opportunity to show us what he could do.
And I bet that there are a lot of good professionals who started out along those lines.
I have a few comments with this post. For those reading, I’m the friend who e-mailed Roger regarding the ‘young photographer’. He worked with me as an assistant for four years and having completed a course in ‘Starting Your Own Business’ is ready to start his own Photographic outfit..
Firstly Roger, you haven’t even met him and heard his full story (this is happening later today). You’ve jumped to whole blog roll of words & conclusions before even hearing him out. What if he reads this before meeting you? It’s all gone a bit Dan Boyle eh?
Secondly, I have issues with the title ‘Misguidance’. In your utopian world potential clients ‘just book us on the strength of our work’ but in the real world, Roger, price and reputation stand almost side by side. He’s aware that he doesn’t have the reputation (yet) so he feels he can’t charge our prices (yet). When you see his portfolio, you’ll see that, based on his pricing scale, the couple will get good value.
If this photographer wants to enter a market, solely based on price, so what? Isn’t price ‘in’ right now? If you don’t like that – and it goes against the Overall Principles – don’t refer him. Others may.
Thousands of photographers have started out this way and do garner successful footings on long career ladders this way. I myself served ‘my time’ in a photographic company locally, when I left this is the exact the tactic I used to build my own business. The key is to start slowly stepping up prices to realistic when things start happening for you – if they start happening for you.
In the early stages it’s all about getting the gig, not the cash. He needs more experience and the associated stock of new sample albums and images for his website will the real remuneration to him. It worked for me, and I know several more who have done similar. And guess what Roger, a lot of the ‘established photographers‘ that it took scrap referrals from I now refer today. It comes around. It will take time to build up – but it’s not one way for long.
No one should be expected to refer this, or any, photographer on one short meeting or if they don’t agree with their tactic; and that’s not what I asked, it’s was meerly to make an introduction, one small first step, it’s up to himself to make it happen with us all, join the Association – get out there so to speak.
Ok, so we wont tell the Bride and Groom his tactic, and we wont refer everyone to him, but if a couple of us can send on a few suitable leads per annum to him – and it leads to a booking or three – how bad? Let’s all misguide him I say.
Brian Terry
PS: Totally agree with Liam Kidney’s more realistic, common sense, spin on snappers starting out.
I’ll leave it to Roger to respond to these points in detail, but this sort of thing is what I love about this blog and podcast. I believe this is what is referred to in the diplomatic community as a ‘full and frank exchange of views’.
As a non-photographer and someone who knows little about the business, I guess I would feel my opinion falls somewhere in the middle of the current discussion.
As a freelance consultant myself, much of my business comes to me based on referrals and I place tremendous value on any work referred to me as I know that its not only my professional reputation at stake but also the reputation of the person who trusted my work enough to refer it in the first place. As a strong believer in doing one thing right, I also refer a tremendous amount of work to friends and colleagues but I would be extremely careful to refer the work only to people who I knew would deliver the value and level of service expected.
In this case I would imagine that the young photographer is jumping the gun ever so slightly. Its one thing if he was selling office supplies or a product of some description and looking for referrals, I’m sure Roger would be more than happy to open his address book and share plenty of contacts, as we all would to anyone starting in business. However I would personally feel that with something like photography, which is sold almost exclusively on the individual photographers style and ability it would be important that people referring him be more familiar with his style and work ethic.
If you’ll allow me the latitude of turning my consultant eye towards the photography business as a whole, there’s a deeper issue there which I think Roger is touching on. In his own way, I suspect Roger is really trying to encourage this new photographer to find a way of marketing himself without resorting to a race to the bottom price wise. I think his advice of encouraging the young photographer to say to established pros: “Pass me couples who don’t fit with you and let’s see if I’m a better fit” instead of “Pass me cheap work” is very valuable if only to encourage the individual to find a way of distinguishing himself based on something other than price.
With the multitude of young photographers out there, just being cheaper is going the get them nowhere, especially if they are talented.
How many people make long careers out of being known as ‘the cheapest photographer’? How many referral bookings will he lose once he puts his prices up, no matter how slowly – “you shot Beryl’s wedding for $100, why are you charging me $200?” There are surely loads of better ways to build up a portfolio – offer services as a second shooter to a variety of photographers, hire models (or bug friends until they model for free), shoot at relatives weddings while picking the brains of their prof. photographers. The list goes on.
That said, if he deserves the recommendations of his peers, I’m sure he’ll get them. But like Roger pointed out, meeting other photographers and gaining trust doesn’t come from an introduction with an immediate pitch attached to it.
Well, that certainly set the cat among the pigeons.
I need to make a defense of myself on one point, though. I have an email that states why the young photographer in question wanted to speak to me. It says quite clearly that the reason for meeting other photographers is to capture “some referrals from photographers who have folks who cant (sic) afford their packages”.
The blog post was written with that in mind.
As it turns out, a lower price was indeed one of the key things put forward in the meeting earlier today.
In one of the comments, the point is made that price and reputation stand side by side. This is true. If you charge low prices, you have a reputation as a cheap photographer. That is the correlation between price and reputation. A reputation as a good photographer comes from producing good work. A couple looking for a cheap photographer will look for that. A couple looking for a good photographer will look based on a completely different set of criteria.
Sure, you can find good photographers who are cheap, but why should they be cheap? If you are good at what you do, you should be paid for it.
We shouldn’t tell young photographers that they are better off with a cheap price model. We should be telling them that they should find their voice. Their unique voice will carry them further in their career than charging cheaply. “Hire me because I’m cheap” cannot match “Hire me because I am unique” for marketing power and career satisfaction.
As an related issue: would I refer somebody because they are cheap? No. That does, indeed, go against the “Overall Principles”. Would I refer somebody because they are good? Yes.
But, you might say, the issue is that the photographer is inexperienced, so he has to charge less at the start of his career. The thing is, we know from one of the comments that he spent four years training with an established photographer. I’ve been told he undertook wedding shoots in that time. In addition, he has a year’s business schooling. He comes to market more or less having served a traditional apprenticeship. He has learned his craft in the presence of a professional and now he is striking out on his own – as our equal. Having learned the business, why should he be advised to charge less?
One reason, perhaps, is that the portfolio I saw today was very similar to many other wedding photographers. Same style, same approach. That is not a foundation for success. Based on that model price is indeed the only unique selling point. After all, what’s left if you’re offering the same as your competitors?
I strongly believe that we should be encouraging young photographers to develop their own style and market that. In line with this, they should develop unique products. And all of this should tie up neatly with their philosophy of photography and their photographic vision.
Ultimately my position remains unchanged. Encouraging a young photographer to seek referrals for cheap weddings is, I think, misguided.
Like Donal, I’m not a photographer. (I take snaps & love great photographs.) I’m drawn into the exchange of views for two reasons: (1) there’s an edge to the conversation (2) I’ve thought a lot about how to pitch for business, made plenty of mistakes, arrived at a stance that fits with the person I am.
Photographers do the same as I do. They develop their skills and gradually find their voice. On the way, they try many approaches to earning a living – in a marketplace that changes beyond their control. I empathise with all the protagonists here.
It took me a while to develop the confidence to say “I have a style you can’t get from anyone else.” A relatively inexperienced photographer would have the same issues I had. Apprenticeshipping – as Shannon reminded me – works. I sat at the feet of people I regarded as masters. I tagged on to their gigs. I assisted.
But the day came when I said to myself “I am one of them, I’m even a bit better at one or two things than many of them, What the heck, I’m going for it.”
A difference between my experience and this one: I went after my own clients. I took no referrals from others. I put myself about into corners that were not served, and I built a portfolio. Then, I became ready to negotiate referrals – whether I’d accept them from others. I decided to over-deliver on the one thing I felt I had sufficient depth of experience in – rapport with clients. I built my USP on “surprisingly good rapport”. I hardly knew what I was doing and I learned the language to describe my approach slowly.
The new kid on the block may be the one who becomes a star. But no one becomes an enduring star without making mistakes. This juncture in the career of this photographer may be very important. In 20 years, he may look back on it and smile at the feelings it provoked.
This is such a thought-provoking forum for me. It’s sent thoughts spinning in many directions. I think I have a totally different approach to pricing work to anyone here – but that’s another story – for another day.
To to young photographer I say, hear them all (including me) – find your own mind.
This post was brought to my attention today and I would like to make a few comments. I’m the young snapper who Roger is referring too. As mentioned above I have worked in the photography business, following art college I spent 4 years in the photography business. First as a photographers assistant and during the last two years I’ve photographed dozens of weddings.
First off I want to thank Roger for his time this morning and some of the advice he gave.
From this meeting I wasn’t under any delusion that Roger would start forwarding on recommendations straight away, it was just a starting point, an introduction, a chance for me to show some of my previous work. I could of rang or emailed but I felt a face to face meeting was more appropriate considering the type of business we’re in. Peoples trust is very important and Roger is right about a bad recommendation will also reflect harshly on the photographer giving the recommendation. These meetings are about starting this trust.
I think it is best to be straight with people and this is why I laid the card on the table regarding what I was hoping for from these meetings. At this stage in my business, one of the strongest approaches to marketing my business, apart from my photographs would be on price.
Certainly in these times, couples are price conscious and have a budget that might not stretch to the €2000 +, but they are still looking for a photographer who will give them a quality product and service.
My photography business is new and so I’m not as lucky as those who get a steady flow of enquiries from recommendations from past weddings. However I do intend on using any sources at my disposal. One such source is the photographer I previously worked for.
The issue is not the meeting, as Roger posted this before meeting me, the issue is Roger taking up the email “He received from a friend” wrong. My intentions are for referrals but Roger deciding it was from one meeting only and that it was going to be a one way referral was incorrect.
I’m not going to be able to give other photographers a lot of referrals initially but that might be different in years to follow. Having a network of photographers you can trust is important and you never know when you will need some help.
I’m a photographer who gives the price conscious couple a modern, artistic product that will be unique to them.
Andrew O’Dwyer
There have been good points made on both sides of this argument. The price issue is a hard one to beat, particularly in this economy. I know that if I had gone down the wedding photographer route when I first went pro just five years ago, I would have probably started out by charging a pittance as well. With the benefit of experience I can see that it would have been a mistake to do so. Thankfully I decided to stick with landscape work instead – it’s a harder road to travel, but I love it. I don’t love wedding or other social photography.
I think there are a couple of factors at play, not least of which are confidence and natural talent, or the lack thereof. There are people who at absurdly young ages display a clarity of vision in their work which takes the rest of us years, if ever to achieve. Most people aren’t blessed with that, and so start out by offering the same thing as the rest of the market. This makes it hard to differentiate on anything other than price.
The key is to be confident enough in your own vision, even if it’s just beginning to emerge, to charge what you’re worth. This doesn’t have to be top-tier, but don’t go for the bottom rung either. I think there is a place for charging a relatively low cost when you’re starting out to build up a portfolio and work with a little less pressure (as inevitably, even if its in your own head, higher cost = higher expectation from the client, and therefore increased pressure on you).
However, your selling point should not be the fact that you’re cheap – but that you can deliver your style. After a while you can start increasing your cost as your confidence grows. If you’re good, you’ll be getting more and more bookings, so increasing the cost will stop the volume of work from becoming too much. Too much work makes it a treadmill and you lose the creative spark, you’ll get burned out and become just another photographer going through the motions, hating what he does and having to grind out 60+ weddings a year just to make ends meet.
If you fixate on cost in your own head, that’s all it’ll ever be about. The cost should be in the background – your work should be the thing you concentrate on, both yourself and with prospective clients.
That’s my .02c on the matter, as an observer on the outside of the wedding industry.
BNI, does this sound like a social/business networking pyramid scheme ??????????????????????
“collusive practices” i.e. pyramid schemes, under investigation by the E.U. Competition Authority. Sound marketing advice????
No exchange of money but an exchange for equal value. It might sound innocent, but any scheme where only the top of the hierarchy benefits is…
Hi Frank,
Thanks for commenting.
BNI is a franchise business rather than a pyramid scheme. Nor does it seek to benefit only the franchise holders. Quite the opposite, it spends huge amounts of money making sure members are able to generate the referral business they are looking for.
As far as I know, BNI is not under investigation by any EU authority.
Peter makes good use of the word “relatively” in his comment about starting out. His advice about starting somewhere in the middle is also very sound.
Charging half of what the middle-tier established photographers charge, for instance, cannot be seen as a relatively good place to start. Charging 15 per cent could be. The thing about “relatively”, though, is that it is relative to the individual. What is relatively acceptable to one, isn’t to another. Which is why you end up with a lengthy comments stream.
This whole debate has raised another interesting issue.
The most common complaint from professional wedding photographers is that people are coming into the market (mainly enthusiasts, semi-professionals, but as we’ve seen from this debate other professionals as well) and charging much less. It’s interesting, then, that on the other hand professionals are actively encouraging photographers to come into the market at low-end prices. You’d love to be a fly on the wall if the two sides ever met.
For the record, and to repeat what I have already said publicly on this topic: cheaper photographers will always be with us. It is up to us to engage with our market and explain why we are worth the higher price. And we should be engaging with young or new professional photographers to explain why should be charging proper prices as well.
I suppose the key is to charge at a minimum enough that you can make a living. The problem is that many people charge less than that because they either don’t realize they wont be able to live off it, or because they have another income stream (spouse/full time job etc) that makes it unnecessary.
I came across this today, very relevant to this discussion: http://virtualphotographystudio.com/photographyblog/2010/07/8-things-a-photographer-will-never-learn-in-school/
There’s a great post here: http://digitalprotalk.blogspot.com/2010/07/business-day-thursday-how-i-sell-my.html with more to come next week.
While I said I wouldn’t be adding to this, it’s hard not to when one reads the additional posts….
Firstly, I want to make it clear that myself and Roger will continue our relationship irrespective of these postings….I’m voicing my opinion on his initial post both publicly and privately…and so is he. I look forward continuing to our regular(ish) social interactions.
Secondly, there seems to be a vibe from Roger’s posts that I have somehow encouraged and / or misguided Andrew into ‘charging less’ than what he otherwise should charge. I want to clarify that I’ve only ever advised Andrew to charge what he think his products were worth. He came up with a pricing scale, which is, as it happens, is lower than ours. Ironically, when Andrew showed me this scale my initial reaction was that it was too low. I gave my opinion, but he didn’t increase his prices. His business, his call.
Introducing Andrew to photographers was something I would have done regardless of his pricing, and regardless of his business plan. If he gains a meeting through my introduction it is up to himself to expand on his own plan, pricing and move the relationship forward etc with that individual. Yes, gaining referrals from photographers who had people asking them ‘did they know someone in X price range’ was an element of his plan….
Interesting how BNI had been mentioned initial thread and picked up by ‘Frank’. Leaving the Pyramid Scheme and MLM comparisons for another day, Roger, you’re heavily involved with BNI….correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t a strong element of BNI about you passing referrals (or leads) to the various other trade members of your ‘Chapter’ at the monthly meetings?
BT
Hi Brian,
Thank you for your new comment.
Yes, I am involved in BNI. I am a member of the Cork City chapter and I am an assistant director in the organisation. The latter is an unsalaried function. I deliver training to members throughout the Cork/Kerry region and provide support to another chapter in Cork to help it grow the business it transacts among members at its weekly meetings.
Members of BNI chapters pass referrals to other members in their chapter. That is correct. They do so based on knowing, liking and trusting their fellow members.
Trust is a key consideration. It takes time to build up. Once established, referrals flow freely and easily.
Nowhere in the post does it say that referral business is bad. Quite the opposite. The post mentions that seeking to build long-term relationships so that fellow professionals can get to know the young photographer in question is a constructive way forward. Establishing the relationship before asking for the business is pivotal.
That is how BNI works. I think it is a sound basis for business outside of BNI as well.
I hope there won’t be any more contributions on price. Money is such a difficult thing to discuss in public – the circumstances of each person are so different.
As an outsider looking in on photographers and BNI, I feel like saying it’s hard to find your own style, voice, personality & character. From childhood, most practise the art of copying. Most spend their life copying. Most never become fully themselves.
I really like the link Darren Purcell shared. Virtual Photography looks good, worthwhile reading. I love Peter Cox’s “be confident in your own vision” – and how he shared his passion for landscape photography, emphasised how much he like doing it.
“Worth” – for me – is a funny thing. If I was to charge what I think I’m worth, no one could afford me. But maybe such thinking simply displays me as idiosyncratic?
The bigger issue is how to grow the market for photographic skills – how to help more people to realise they can gain from hiring committed photographers – how the conversation with a serious photographer can enrich their business and life. What about all those photographs that never get shown? Could a young photographer find a new way to deal with the shots that are left over – that no one wants to buy, yet? Some projects change the way everyone thinks.
I think I’ve gone way off the issue?
Thank you for your comment Paul. It contains an interesting notion: what happens to all the photographs that don’t get beyond the photographer’s editing process. Or if they do, are never given a wider audience.
A topic for a future post, maybe?